Sh8peshift Your Life

Fronteras y Puentes//Borders & Bridges: Diaspora Dialogues in CDMX

• Zakiya Harris aka Sh8peshifter • Season 1 • Episode 24

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https://youtu.be/giPreyS_6TY

Desde el pulso de la Ciudad de México hasta el corazón de la diáspora, este diálogo es una verdadera charla donde la diáspora se encuentra con la Ciudad de México. Analizamos el intercambio intercultural, la migración creativa y las complejas verdades de la gentrificación, compartiendo historias sobre lo que significa arraigarse, conectar y crear a través de las fronteras.

From the pulse of Mexico City to the heartbeat of the diaspora, this dialogue is a real talk sit-down where the diaspora meets Mexico City. We’re unpacking cross-cultural exchange, creative migration, and the messy truths of gentrification—sharing stories of what it means to root, connect, and create across borders.

Invitadas/Guests:
Zakiya Harris: Host: www.sh8peshiftyourlife.com

Aline Conté: @alinecnts, aline.cnts@gmail.com

Marduk Salam: IG n X: @marduksalam, @mardukylasfloressilvestres, marduksalam@gmail.com

V(ivianne) A. Njoku: IG: v_vanalexander & theurbanXdotorg, SHIFTtheTrends@gmail.com & v@theurbanX.org, Sitio web: SHIFTtheTrends.com & theurbanX.org

Diego del Mundo
@diegodelmundisimo

Recorded at www.somoslabestia.com

If this episode resonated with you, subscribe, leave a review, and share it with your people! Let’s keep the conversation going—connect with me and let me know your biggest takeaway.

Sh8peShift YourLife (00:

53) Greetings, greetings, greetings, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Shape Shift Your Life podcast. This is going to be a super exciting episode. have a couple of announcements to mention. Number one, we are currently moving to a two times a week pace now. I've given you 22 episodes of every week and a girl needs her rest. So I'm now going to move to twice a month. So stay tuned for that. And we have a super, super exciting conversation today. If you remember one of my last episodes, I talked about gentrification in Mexico City, and I really gave you my take on the issue. But as I said before, we were preparing. for a much, much broader conversation with folks who live here, who we're in community with. And so that's what today's all about. So today's episode is called Borders and Bridges, Diaspora Dialogues in Mexico City. We have an amazing panel discussion. You know, I haven't had this many guests in the history of our podcast, so we're super excited about that. And really the point of it is to bring together voices of the African American and African diaspora, along with folks who live here in Mexico City and are local, to really talk about some of the nuance that I think has been missing from a lot of the news and the conversations that are going on, as well as some of the complexities, and really have some space for cross-cultural exchange, and talk about migration and all of the layered impacts of it. in today's shifting global landscape. saludas y todos. Bienvenidos de nuevo a otro episodio de Shape Shift Your Life. Esta conversación es muy especial porque hoy tenemos algunos invitados muy especiales, y escointiendo nuestra tema de Fronteras y Puentes, Dialogues de la Diaspora en la Ciudad de México. En este panel, Dinamico, Renunimos Voices de la Diaspora Africana y las Comunidades Locales de la Ciudad de México para destranar las complejades de intercambio intercultural, la migración creativa y los impactos extraficados de la gentrificación en la cambiante panorama global de hoy. Okay, so you see me, Espanol. You know, I'm out here trying. I'm doing it, I'm doing it. It's no perfecto, pero I think that's one of the things that is so importante about this conversation. So I'm gonna be speaking a lot of Spanglish hoy, pero todas personas aquí hablo Espanol perfecto. So for my American audience, I'm inviting you to expand your minds a little bit and really get used to having another language on your ear today. And for folks who Spanish as their first language, I'm going to ask for your patience, OK? So, we are going to kick it off. for todos personas aquí, que te ayudo a estar aquí, or what holds you here. So moved here about five years ago and kind of have just been finding my feet here, integrating into the pace and the spice that is life in Mexico. Hola Same, I think I'll do a little of the mix of two languages. mix, right? A mix, why not? My name is Vivian Njoku. the question de donde eres always generates a lot for me in my mind. And I think a simple way to answer it is to say that I was ⁓ born in Nigeria and my family immigrated at a young age. For me, I was four, we immigrated to the United States. And so I grew up... in the suburbs of Washington DC and moved around quite a bit in my adult life and very early on in that existence began to identify as an immigrant, as a badge of honor because, you know, growing up, migrating from Africa in the 80s wasn't cute. There wasn't multiculturalism. There wasn't, you know, the idea of like acceptance. It was more like African booty scratcher go home. And so I say that because, you know, over time, I really felt a strong pull to find what felt like home because it was clear for me that that wasn't it. And so after traveling for many years, I came to Mexico City for the first time in 2018 and really saw a lot of beautiful parts of the culture in the city that aligned with my own family's culture, with Nigerian culture, and even with Lagos where I was born, where I've been able to go back and spend time and live as well. And so, yeah, what brought me here really was, you know, that longstanding feeling of... not being 100 % welcome where I grew up, where my family brought me in and feeling like it got to a point. This was really the tipping point for me was 2016, where, yeah, there was an election. What happened then? What do you mean? There was an election. Not even for a year. And I really started to feel unsafe, number one. And I also started to feel hatred emerging me that just wasn't natural to me. And so, you know, I got here and, yeah, we'll get into the details, but that's really what brought me here was a feeling of alignment and a feeling of ⁓ seeking refuge. Hola, hola, hola. .Soy I'm Marduk Salam. I am Marduk and I was born here in Mexico City. I lived for several years in France and well, I'm a singer. teacher and well I I'm very excited about this conversation it's always very sweet and very exciting to to exchange points of view to share yeah vidas, experiencias with other sisters and brothers and yeah so thank you for having me here. I consider myself much more Mexican because I've spent my whole life here. But I've been very fortunate to very connected with the Guinean culture and African culture, like the West. So a great part of that culture that my dad and also this extended because it with several immigrants from Guinean, from Senegal and from other places, allowed me to very, very connected with that. So, always, this distinction that I I large part of this mix defines me as person. And my studies were in a French so I I grew with these three cultures and nationalities and I love it. And I'm very, very excited about this talk because I feel that just looking at the profiles of each of us is going to be a very good So I talked a lot about my experience in the other episode, but I do want to say one thing. So I am the descendants of farmers and blacksmiths and people who work with the earth and work with cloth. And I was born in Richmond, Virginia. And my parents grew up in a segregated South where they literally watched the Klu Klux Klan and marched down their street. my father was the first to integrate his high school and literally got called the N-word every day. And because of a series of those events, my parents decided, you know what, we're not gonna raise our daughter here, we're moving to California, We're going west and we are gonna be open to new ideas and cultures and places and spaces and that is really what birthed me. Even though was born in Virginia, I was raised in Oakland, California, and that really shaped me. And my mother was able to buy a home, and she was able to put me through private school and send me to college and really create a beautiful life for me. And one generation later, with more education than my mother, I cannot afford to live in the city that I grew up in. I have been completely priced out. because of gentrification and I would even argue globalization if what we're going to get into later today. And so I had to make a decision of where I wanted to feel free. And so now I have now migrated to the country of Mexico, which is a country that also has a history, a history of people of African descent that came before Columbus and came during the transatlantic slave trade. And so the reason I wanted to name that is because I think migration is important to put this conversation into context and to really think about how just looking at three generations of my bloodline, we have not been able to find a place to really thrive and grow. And every generation almost has to start over to try to get this idea of sovereignty. And I'm still on that journey. Next question. que te trajo a la ciudad de México, o que te mantiene arigado aquí? For me it's more what What made me come back here. Because I lived like 10 years outside. And really, obviously it's my land, it's the place where I And there's like... very special with that place. However, beyond that, and it's also way of introducing what we going to talk and when you talk about immigration and this whole African-American that is coming to Mexico as a place of refuge, I can understand perfectly why. Because it really is a very cool to live. For me, returning to Mexico was returning to the South. having lived in the global north was to return to the south, to return here where people have different codes and ways of life that make life easier, more beautiful, despite all the horrible things that happen in this country. Despite all that, returning here is like reconnecting with life, reconnecting with something very deep. that although I had job, had lot of beautiful It can never compare well, you can compare to what can you see in a country like this, which is not the only but in a country like this there is this thing that is very endearing, Yes, agree with you, I was in France for a year and... Part of me, that didn't like France because it's part of my education, but another part was like, I miss a little bit of this beauty of life that you have in Mexico, like this connection to music, with the family, whether it's family of blood or your chosen family, think we give great importance to this time and space that you with these people. Culture in general, like being able find in any place very close to Mexico Really, all of the territory of Mexico. {It’s} This contact with the culture, the many races of people, the food. I am always very present with this. And the colors! I don’t know if anyone else feels the same way. It’s very colorful and to have these photographs …suddenly, i’m looking through books about photography to see these photographs of the colors and life in mexico. I really don’t know many places but I can’t see myself in another place. Here you feel at home despite all the bad things can be happening. It's like a safe for me right now. when 2016 happened, And things didn't feel secure for us anymore. And the idea of where we were gonna go. some of the questions we ask ourselves is, what's the flavor? What's the spice? do they like us? Can we go and adapt and settle in with people who are just going to be okay with our very presence. And Mexico, think if you've come here outside of spring break places, then you'll see that melanated people are treated, well. And I say well, compared to what we just get on a daily basis inside of the U.S. So it became a refuge for people because they came down and saw a different Mexico than we had seen on television. And one that allowed us to to come and just be and had a level of respect, fascination and excitement for us Obviously there are some things along the way that happened to a few specific people that gave some people pause. But in general, I think the immigration here outside of the economic was also what was the social aspect going to be? Yes, I am thinking about we are going to get to this point in the future of this conversation. But also this question of why I still here. like... the thing is... It has a to do with me with a feeling. Like, like at the end of the day it's like... How do feel? And here I feel like... really this balance, Like, are things that aren't so cool, right? And ugly things that have happened to me personally. And at the same time, it's not the majority of the experience, as Diego is saying The vast majority of the experience is a feeling of comfort. I feel like they say one can lower the shoulders. You can breathe deeply not feel like, now what? you know I started to feel like in the US. Now what? With respect to racism. Now what? Frequently. Daily. Now what? Walking into a place. A white person. Just walking in the street. how does gentrification in your daily or in your work in the city? I mean, I think if we're thinking about the economics, across the board. The places that have been gentrified inside of Mexico City are just expensive for everybody, And if before Condesa, Roma, Polanco were expensive, now they're just unreachably expensive, and you have to be in a certain class of people. and certain careers that can afford those salaries. So in that way, that changes everything, I live outside of the bubble, as it's called, and my food costs are so much cheaper than when I come into the bubble to work or just for pleasure. the bubble is that area you know, it's primarily in the English-speaking area of the city now, And so that's Roma, that's Condesa, Polanco is a little bit further afield. That's its own beast by itself. But when we think of gentrification happening now, that's Roma and Condesa. These are pretty large central areas of the city. But now it’s creeping to other areas . . Centro, Lagunilla, . . .right up to the door of Tepito I can at least tell when I crossed the line into the bubble. I mean, you hit Insurgentes and it's just like, you know, it goes from hola to hi real quick. You know, and suddenly the tacos jump in price. Tacos are expensive. Orinoco is great, but expensive. But then if I go down to Centro Medico, I can get five tacos for 35 pesos. just the feeling you have when I interact with people outside of that bubble. You can feel the difference. So I feel bad for people who don't leave that area because I'm like, you're not even having authentic interpersonal relationships with the people. Who make this place the attractive place that you wanted to come to? I belive that every day. Every month I have to pay rent. Every time I have to to the supermarket and you to 3 4 things and it's 200 pesos. And it's there. It's there all the time. And of when you go to places like Diego says, it's like... And it's very interesting because just when, now for this conversation, I started to see bit of blogs of African American people living here. And often, both in blogs and reels, phrase is, Mexico is so cheap. So cheap for who? Because for me it's not cheap. For me, for the rent I pay, for everything that goes away, I can't... afford even a third of the things that these people can And so, there you are all the time. One of the reasons why I lived many years in La Roma in the tip of Roma near the Doctores and one of why I left was because that, because it was becoming an English speaking zone. And not because I had a problem with speaking English, but it's not the same to speak English with... People from the global people who share your... right? With people who are here living the best life. Yes, And well, that's So ⁓ living in this bubble and that's the difference, I didn't arrive because it was in fashion, yes it was in fashion for Mexicans, I I arrived since there was this whole issue foreign gentrification because gentrification was already there. It many years and it is a shock and truth is I leave it because I have feelings found, like I like it. La Condesa in general, parece una colonia muy bonita, es muy bonita, tiene parques, es muy verde, como es una colonia bonita. Y en estos años realmente sí he logrado hacer cierta comunidad con ciertos locales, como la chica de la tintohería que puede recibir mis paquetes si yo no estoy, con quien platico, que saludo diario, ⁓ los señores de las astrerías, así tengo ya esta... Yes, community, that you for when you arrive in a new neighborhood and it's hard for to leave it and I have this... Well, get I get having to the one leaving, right? But I also find this, that obviously the income every year is like, yes, this debate of, this makes sense, how should I continue spending this amount, which the truth is, know that my housekeeper is very kind and really has raised my income as I could, right? And on the hand it is also Just this, going out and just listening to English. it's not just listening English, think it's people who are looking to make a living here, which I is what causes me more conflict. Like, what you want is to your neighbors, your community, your friends, how greet people. And then, if you a place and you just greet, it's like, I'm leaving three days, it's like, away. I this friendship, I really want this support of the place I'm and that causes me lot of conflict and I it a in restaurants or cafes, I'm very talkative and I like to talk lot, like knowing the person So if I can get a coffee and say, ah, hello, how are you? How was it? And if I notice this surprise of people like, oh, you speak Spanish. It's a genuine You're interested. And think that's also part of the conflict, well as, the migration. exists for a long but it's just like noticing that it's becoming a bubble where you're looking to interact with other people and with local people and that I is what can make angry much more and that I it too in the day day, I like, yes, yes, especially like this surprise of other people and I... me causa mucho conflicto y también esperar que siempre me hablen directo en inglés y esperar como, obvio vives aquí, tienes que hablar. Es como, si lo hablo pero no lo quiero hablar. Come on! No debería tener que hacerlo y creo que sí se ve en eso, además de todos los otros aspectos que mencionaron con los que concuerdo 100%. Sí, De acuerdo con todo que ustedes han dicho y también me gusta que nombraste tú este de as gentrification right now, which is more visible by... because the fact that are coming from because they were there. It's part of something that causes me little frustration in the conversation is that many times it appears as if people are they are talking about the gentrification as if it just started in the pandemic, And as if before was no distance, Like there has always been these class divides. This is the largest city in North America. This is one of the largest cities in this hemisphere. so, it's like we should recognize that this is part of what it is to be in these ⁓ urban spaces. That's not to say, it's just going to happen. No, but to have a more ample perspective. Now notice that many people, for example, the housekeepers and people who rent houses, are trying to take They're trying to fuck people who think they have money. For example, just in my building there was It's a long to tell, but it's it's an abuse, It's an abuse to think that people because they're ex-generals have money or they're causing something, right? They're impacting this community of the building in a negative way, Like, and watching everything we do. And there was like a... I'm ⁓$1,500. For something that we all know costs $1,500. And that's why we talked with our owner of the house, the owners, a couple, who, thanks to everyone, are very kind. And they said, look, we know what it what's going on. We're to talk to the administrator to fix this. You don't need to about Talking to the owner, the administrator, the same thing, right now it's $600. So we're like, and this is like an example of something that's happening to many people. And it's also like talking more about the infrastructure and this system. I'm going to that lot of are coming to do spring break or to celebrate and they don't want to invest. This is part of it and also part of it is the Mexican and the people who already have some privilege here, are eager to have more power, more money. In many ways, they are abusing people who are rejecting foreigners to live here or to construct something here. So, yeah. . .we are suffering. I mean, think the whole thing about gentrification is that there's a clash between the social and then that comes right up against economic you have the folks who come in who have greater purchasing power, who can buy entire buildings, multiple apartments, or rent them, and then convert them into money-making ventures, if you are an everyday local person who's gone about your life and then an entire part of your city looks different, sounds different, smells different, tastes different, then yes, this causes anger, the mayor or the jefa de gobierno, Clara Brugada, has her proposal. And it's some of the same things that we're doing in the U.S. were not going to allow for a jump in your rent, that's higher than the rate of inflation, We're not going to allow there to be an abuse by the people who own multiple apartments. Now, of course, this still has to be voted on, but I think they are moving a lot quicker to their credit to confront the issue. Now, the social aspect may have moved a little quicker, So I can't be mad at these folks for tearing a few things up to get the attention, because it did what it was supposed to do. Now, don't come yelling in my face if you are upset about gentrification. That element of it obviously crosses the line, the conflict that happens with black Americans is that many of us are here as a result of gentrification. Gentrification in our hometowns that suddenly became attractive to people with more money. I speak Spanish fluently, I've integrated, I know my seamstress, I know my local vendor, et cetera. But now, because things have gotten to such a fever pitch, our very existence causes problems. At least the black people I know tend to be a little bit more conscious I think I have a question. Do you think that nowadays African-Americans coming to Mexico are still filling the cracks because most of them are remotely working. So they are earning like money quite higher than the salary we earn. We, mean, we, all of us. I think that what what we do have is a greater diversity of black people that come here. Now, as someone who is not a high earning person, There's a lot more black men and black women who are tech bros And who do come in with a higher level of purchasing power before you would hear a news story and you go. well. Yeah, that wasn't a black person Like, they wanted to stop the mariachi band? That wasn't a black person, And then you found yourself shocked that it was. but I think on the whole, we didn't have enough of a presence or resource to change the surrounding areas I think also black people we're not a monolith, Yo tengo amigos who live in Polanco, yo tengo amigos who live in Doctores or Cerca de Tepito and now we're talking about Africans from America, pero there's a lot of black Colombians black Cubans huge Haitian community here. So I do think it's worth noting that. Why are Black people from todo el mundo, right, coming what are the reasons why Black Americans are the most visible? it's obvious, Because we know America is visible. In June, I was in California. I'm from Oakland, California. And looking at the immigration and the complete racism and xenophobia happening in America that also raises the tension, Verdad, about when people look at America right it's easy to just lump everybody into Mismo Grupo. When we hear gringo, we don't identify with Not at all. But for you all, might think, of course, you're all gringos because we know that we don't carry the same privilege. And I think, unfortunately, there are people who come here and just don't know how to be respectful and are rude and disrespectful. I grew up in a Mexican neighborhood in Oakland, California. My neighbors are Mexican. My high school was Mexican. So I never realized the gap until I came here, you know, because for us, it was always solidarity. When we talk about Black Lives Matter, when we're talking about workers' rights, it's Black and Mexicans in mismo barrio fighting together. That doesn't mean that this experience isn't real as well, because it is, but I think that's also why its more complex You said something that, actually, came to me earlier in return just now, this fact that many of us that come from urban spaces in the United States grew up with Latinidad, no? Like I've talked to you about this, we very much understood ourselves also, you know, through the constant oppression of the white gaze, we've understood ourselves to be, you know, an equation. When you look at any statistic across education, healthcare, birthrate, it's always, Black and Latino. That's the way it's written. Black and Latino. It's not black and Latino. It's black and Latino, you know, because we know, you know, the system has also created it to be so in that way. And those are so mesmo. Like coming here, I think for many people, again, we are not a monolith. Even, you know, the, naming as African American. I never have named myself as an African American because I'm not. I'm a Nigerian, a perpetual immigrant, you know, as far as I'm concerned. And so, yeah, I think for many folks it's important to understand that nuance. So, for example, although there is a Afro-Mexican I, who was born in the city, didn't see I I was really more with... the children of these migrants, friends of my father, who came with my father. also, why do you cause so shock and why people in Mexico City can't understand this union that they could have lived or lived in the States? That's why, because in reality in Mexico City there was never... It's happened. It like this community didn't even exist. these Afro-descendants in Mexico They are invisible. And so it wasn't until now with this strong immigration which coincides also that of the community of Venezuelans, Colombians Haitians than was just talked about. It was like yes, there are Afro-descendants in Mexico City, but before, no, and that's why there's this rejection in the city, because they're going identify them justly, and by language they're going identify as Afro-Americans, but I think it comes lot from this complexity that Mexico City never wanted to this closeness with the Afro-descendent community.About two days ago, around here—since I live in Narvarte—an older man, I’d say, in his mid 70’s asked me “Where are you from?” Before I had a to answer, he said that it's because you can't be from here, because we don't have Blacks He was saying black, so I was like, Black people? And he was like, yes, don't have, Mexico doesn't have. Imagine saying that. He was a brown man, about your skin tone and he is from Veracruz, because we started talking, and obviously it was like, how? How dude? Sorry, how, sir? So yes, this a big part of this clash in the city. think, as you said, the times that people have used the image of a black person as one of gentrification. It's like, what? Like, how? Because it's also... I know, it's stirring up this latent racism that exists here that we can't forget that this is part of the global context, right? Like racism is global, we're going get to a place where we this, even Africa, There's lot of too. So think it's interesting, it's interesting too, like... I don't know, as a history feel like, a way, looking it from behind, very interested in this moment, in the history of this city, because I know that people like us are living so we're going to see in the future, not so far away, how we're going to stay with this... mix of black people that we are integrating more in the fabric of the city and I feel like this moment right now is a necessary moment of tension that also needs to like, I think that racism does need to come up. And so what are some things you could tell black folks coming here to be aware of? Like what would be a mindfulness or a level of respectability or just respecting the culture. can people do for black folks specifically? Yeah, we're just talking to our people. They are not our center. I think just to be conscious I think were sort of shocked as to well, why would you leave the US? because generally when you saw black immigrants coming through Mexico, it was of a desperate need and we had the privilege of saying I wanted to not that I needed to But it's not always accepted Because, the financial part of it comes into play. the majority of the reception has been completely the other way, It's been fascination. It has been an excitement even to the point of fetishization sometimes. I think for me, I do not use the word expat. I am not an expat. I'm an immigrant. And I think that using that language is humbling because it reminds you, are a guest. being a guest requires a level of respect. Learning the language. always say people go to Europe, they go to France, they go to Germany. They think about speaking French or German, but I do think there is a xenophobia around. Mexico where people just don't think they have to learn the Shop local. I really feel strongly about not supporting any American business if you're here. Do not come here. And I know a lot of Mexicans love Walmart. No offense. I'm just saying like to go to Walmart and McDonald's and Office Depot and all of these global corporations. Because again, I think it's a global thing. So it's really important to me to shop local, to support local businesses, to lift up local businesses, to put money in locals' hands as much as possible, and to really use the privilege that we have in order to try to have more conscious conversations. I think economics are more where I feel like is the true unity more than where our racial differences are, meaning that. how do we unite against the billionaires and the oligarchies and the larger global 1 % that fuel globalization around the world, So I having that level of self-awareness when you come, I've been joking with my friends, maybe black people need an orientation to learn how you need to act. I think it's muy importante. I'd love to hear you all share how we could be more conscious as we're here. I really love that you actually put a word into there expat because I hate it. Like, as you mean, like we are, we're all migrants and when we change the language is when the social conflict happens. like I said, my dad immigrated and so can't be against migration But, it's in the end think that when When you use the word immigrant, you that you're looking for something better. You have privilege, the opportunity to look for something better. it's something that you have to be very, very aware of the that you don't want go back to where you came from. And yes, the language. As I've had this conversation with several people, and took everything that was happening, in Europe and all the migration they but in end, coming from any country in Africa, you are forced to speak French or Italian, the language of the country you are to, and you have to integrate because yeah . . I think that's it's a bit extreme because it's like leaving your identity, but yes... maintain attributes of that, like "how do you really understand the culture of this country? you really want to because you like it and if you make this effort to learn it. And again, it doesn't have to be perfect, it's just having the humility of wanting to learn it. A lot of that from what you mention about the locals and supporting all these enterprises as I that's what I to invite everyone to do To the dry cleaners to the barista who is your local one It's cool. It generates lot. And another thing that I have not spoken about, but I do believe that this creates genuine curiosity also because of the history of Afro-Mexicans. I had this conversation a few weeks ago with a few friends and that's what they were angry about, felt that was no integration and they were a little surprised because in the end we are all still a minority, no matter what country you in, because is no really this union. And I hadn't seen it, I didn't feel it until I had that conversation and it's true, maybe looking for a way to... These two struggles can be united or just curiousity. Like, okay, I come from the States and I have this purchasing power to be here in this bubble. But you are displacing a minority which are my black and sisters, that are moving How can we integrate? how can we make them visible? what can we do together? Mexico? to maintain these traditions that have been here in Mexico I think it can be contributed to a lot, even if you don't... La lucha no haya sido la misma, al final sigue siendo de raíz la misma lucha. Y creo que podría ser muy enriquecedor. Entonces, que sobre todo eso, como interesarse un poco más, entender el contexto, dónde están estas personas, cómo podemos integrarlas y hacer, tal vez, proyectos juntos que permita que, si ya vamos a, o queremos estar dentro de esta burbuja, pues cómo podemos ayudar, justo, a nuestros hermanos o hermanas como para que vengan, ¿no? Y que también, I do too many things. I'm to make an echo of what you guys said. Of course, migration is... has never to be the problem. Never. ⁓ Xenophobia, ⁓ it's a problem that Mexicans have had for generations. all of them. Totally. But it's related to history and with many things that we should discuss one time. But I... Speaking about this idea of monolith, about the diaspora, ⁓ I think, well, we were born, all of us, inside the matrix, this matrix of patriarchy, of colonialism, of racism, of money, of the power of the money. So it's not because I'm... a people of color, because I'm black, because I'm brown, because I'm Indian, that I cannot access the other oppressions, since the moment I have the power or I have the money. And I think it's a matter of codes, because it's not the same thing when you are ⁓ a person from the diaspora coming from Haiti. And you are not even thinking about how you can integrate the society. You are working on it every day. Literally. Literally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because you are sharing your life with the working class in neighborhoods where working class live, et cetera. And the fact that we are... Sitting here, thinking about those things means a lot because we live in this privileged side of life. So what I want say is that I think it's important to think how my privilege may eventually oppress someone else. how the life that I have, the money that I earn, the language that I speak or the languages that I speak, etc. may have an impact in the society I live in. And I think that's very, important to think of. I think it's very personal. think this how all these black people going to Merida to live there are impacting the society there with their money, with their privileges, with their language, with all these activities that happen in English. Yeah, that's something I want to... because you said or you were saying something about how this the image of a black body became an image of gentrification. That's crazy. I've been really thinking about this personal aspect of it, the personal responsibility aspect that is not just. to be laid at the feet of people who are here migrating. There also is a personal responsibility aspect for people who are from here to recognize the humanity of people who are coming here to migrate and to recognize the need. Again, this is like a sort of request on my end of like. Let's all of us recognize the humanity, When you're coming into a space, I feel like if we are asked as foreigners, any foreigner, from anywhere, if we are asked as foreigners to solely bear the responsibility of our relationship with locals, we are inherently entering into something that is unsustainable and in a lot of ways very, I don't want to say dangerous, but that idea that you lay, the burden of the convivencia, only with the people who are arriving. This is a bit unfair to unfair. I think my personal history also has so much to do with it as being someone who... My family emigrated from Nigeria to the United States to look for something, to give me more opportunities that I did achieve. Like I, you saw me the other day, was like, where it's like, really 100 % see myself and many other people who I know who have these like immigrant lineages. I see us as, you know, our families, like wildest dreams come true. You know, and why not? Why should we come to a place and then start to, you know, hide cowtow and say, you know, actually I don't have, no, I do have, I do have, and it's because others sacrificed. And I think that there's a lot of that connection here as well, because... I feel like one in three Mexicans have someone in the foreign country. Family, right? That they're trying to the same thing. say, ⁓ I know what this is. Como? How do I know what this is? Or from the opposite side, you're looking at me and like, I know what this is, this foreigner. How do you know? You don't. So there's that piece that feels very emotional to me. It feels very raw. you know, ⁓ once here in Mexico City and once in Oaxaca, I've been attacked. Someone attacked me here verbally. Someone attacked me physically in Oaxaca. Brown women. gente morrena. Como por el hecho de que yo estaba existiendo. I wasn't saying anything to anyone, I was existing, I was like, wow. ⁓ This cannot happen. And it is not the vast majority of my experience. I know it's not the vast majority of the experience of many people. But I think that's why also for me this idea of laying the burden with the people who are visiting or who are coming here from another country ⁓ can be dangerous because it fuels, I think, people who have that mentality of like, it's on you to do something. You should be doing something. Yes, and it's on you as well. think ⁓ part of the humanity is the anger. True. And so we need to see the anger of the people. Of course, it's awful, someone coming to you and yelling at you. Of course. But I don't think this is something that happens to a couple of Sudanese speaking Arabic in the same city here. It's English. It's English. It's the passport, the codes, because the behavior, way the body moves, even if we are people of color, we have codes in relation with our education, with our raising, etc. Like even in Condesa we have French people, have Italian, Argentinian, like right now it's the language and I mean it's not fair, I know that it's not your fault that you have that passport or that is your language. I think because of the history that we have with the United States and how they come and behave and mainly white people to be honest, how they behave. Right now, Mexicans were really angry and were putting some limits. at the same time, agree with you, ⁓ you don't need to do more than what you're doing because, well, I know you too and I just met you. Because of the discussion and the conversation, I know you're doing what you need to do. For me, it's more like an invitation to Mexican people as well to pose and... As you mentioned, trying to get to know the other person, understand their story. And the most important in this conversation, is to understand why an African American is migrating to Mexico. And think that's what's missing Like, having this curiosity to learn and know their stories of what's going on in the United States, which beyond their... ability that they have in Mexico, that's simply because of the country's economy I it's that they have that purchasing power in the United States if they're like, uh, faking it, certain actions. I mean, it's more like, having, mean, this is 100 % Mexican and Mexican, like having this curiosity of, why are they migrating? What is happening there? What is affecting them? And what are they also contributing? I think that's very valuable, because there should be this distinction between black people who are arriving in Mexico City, which is happening. So in the end, I also think that these spaces, or that we start having these conversations or different ones that have been happening lately, it's good that it happens now, to try to prevent it from scaling up too much Okay. The anger can’t be prevented because it already exists, and it’s happening. It’s more of “How can we have these conversations?” and try to contribute. At the very least, the question of “Hmm, I'm going to get to know this person before I yell her, because of speaking English. Because they're yelling at another nationality that's speaking among themselves. And you wouldn't be speaking Spanish among yourselves That's ridiculous. Creo que la cosa es no tomarlo personal. Este enojo. Porque... ⁓ It's like en las marchas, las manifestaciones. En manifestaciones feministas, por ejemplo. Hay pancartas que dicen los hombres. And we know that it's not all men When between married couples, between people of the same sex we talk about that the straight men are all men. That straight men are like that, straight men, are . .i don't know Of course...some of my best friends are hetero You live across the street from a few of them I mean . .you have your own language, you have a passport and this is going to implicate you and the people will behave a certain way in response Because the people are angry. . not with you, rather with the situation. And these people, of the working class, don't have time to reflect on your history, that you were oppressed. So I think that's where this reading of humanity enters And to say, it's not against me. I'm doing what I can I'm doing what I should And that's it. When it's said, "Gringos out". it's a particular kind of gringos. And you are not gringos, anyway. It's like, gringos go home, except. It's the list of people who can stay. Because I have to accept that. I I love English. I don't know why, but it's a language that I like very much. And I remember in the past, like many years ago, I was glad when someone was speaking English and I was trying to learn more and something. Since I returned to live here and Mexico and it was like, oh my god, and even for black people, that's a thing. With a couple of black friends speaking English between them, I don't feel like going towards them. Because maybe they are very nice people. But maybe they are very gringos in the way of behaving. You said something very interesting. I thought you were going to say that the working class don’t have time to reflect. Here we are, in this podcast studio in Condesa It's because of a certain degree of privilege. And I think that's also important to name because honestly, I feel like some of the loudest voices, the anti-gentrification voices, are people who are also from a privileged class here, which is even more annoying. I feel like there's a lot of, yeah, there's a lot of pushing off the blame onto foreigners for something that's been, you know. in process for generations as I've said you know and like I think that there is this ⁓ really interesting ability for that owning class here to kind of not be in the conversation, except from time to time to pop out and be like, mm-hmm, the foreigners are doing this, where I think a lot of folks that I know I interact with on a daily basis, more of the local folks, those are the folks I'm actually having the best interactions with because they're not sitting down and saying, ⁓ you know, this is a problem of infrastructure and I think it's more of, they are living their daily lives and they're interacting with people in daily ways. And if it's cool, it's cool. If it's not cool, it's cool. But it's kind of kept more simple for me in my interactions with people who are. Yeah, loco with me every day. And yeah, I feel like there's a there's a need to spotlight this ⁓ sort of leaving out of the conversation of the owning class and the folks who have so much power in everything that we're saying. I think is in itself a level of privilege. Right. Because a lot of those building owners I know don't even live in the city and another state and Queretero or Valle De Bravo and they're just kind of letting this conversation Play out while they're still charging what they're charging But I think the thing that has struck me the most right particularly as I think about Afro Mexicans. I've lived in the state of Oaxaca I've traveled like Costa Chica just to go see my people and The conversation I think it's sort of interesting that people take it as a right that I get to live in Condesa or Roma and I'm just thinking they are are Viviendas, Humildes, and other parts of this city outside of just this central. Now I'm not here to knock anybody for where they want to live, but I just also consider the conditions that I've seen Afro-Mexicans live in, and nobody's saying that these people deserve better places to live, I think about that hurricane that just blew through Oaxaca, The vulnerable Afro-Mexicans live along the coastline. Their places were destroyed.⁓ And just, more than just focusing on people, should grow the discourse to, as the government How are you going to give a dignified dwelling to everyone and stop everything being centralized in two or three neighborhoods? how can really expand? That's another episode of another story. The gentrification is also happening in Iztapalapa and other places. There are also evictions in those places. It's not just a problem in the center. No, not at all. Well, we are at time. This is obviously a really juicy conversation. Muchisima gracias por todos personas. I'm really, grateful for you all and we'll have to maybe do another one. You set it off, but I would like for everyone to just say one thing that does give them hope. One thing that gives me hope is literally when I find myself as a basis like this. when I look around and I see black and brown folks in solidarity, coming from all different cultures, coming from all different experiences, ⁓ being able to, yeah, not necessarily have the exact same desire or interest or whatever it is in the conversation, but be able to really. co-exist through love. It gives me lot of hope. And I find myself in these spaces quite often in the city and I'm grateful. Para mí es mismo. Esta conversación gives me hope and also más oportunidades to be in solidarity con la gente aquí en México. Well, that's a good question because I'm in a quite hopeless moment of my life. mean, life is hard, the world is a bad place to be right now. But I think that... One side is these little moments and exchanges between the people of every day. These moments of kindness that people have towards each other. And when you are present in those moments and you watch those moments happen, I think that's very beautiful because we hear awful news every day and we need those moments and we need these moments also. That gives me hope too, as Vivian said, when people of color, when black people are ⁓ having these moments of exchanges and conversations and love. mean, brown and black love is so important. For me, I think it's kind of the same. I really like and I'm happy to see these spaces and these conversations happening. in English and Spanish. Like I've been with Afro-Mexicans and also Afro-Americans. Like I think this curiosity and... like, common concern that we have. That's what gives me hope. Like, in the end, the simple fact of being aware that something is happening, for me, that already a lot because we could just leave it and continue in our day-to-day And the end, this awareness brings us back to... this humanity we spoke of and these interactions and this curiosity to connect with the other person. think that as long as we keep this curiosity, that gives me hope. what's giving me hope is that the conversation is happening, right, gives those of us who are foreigners here the idea that we do have to be conscious, Even if you're a little overwhelmed or whatever your life is giving you, being conscious of how you move through the world is not too hard of a thing to add onto your list of chores. I every day try to be the exception to anybody's image that they've had of black bodies here in Latin America, particularly. or gringos in general, right? I want you to know, one, there's a difference, And I want for, hopefully my existence, the way I move, will make people go, oh, okay, well, gringo negro, right? So at the very least, you recognize that there's some difference between me and Chad, right? Thank you all so much for listening. Let us know in the comments what solidarity looks like to you and we'll see you next time. Keep shifting. Nos vemos.

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Zakiya aka Sh8peshifter

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